Looking To The Stars ([info]looking2dastars) wrote,
@ 2009-05-19 23:15:00
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I Need Your Help... To Fix Green Arrow/Black Canary
Yes, I'm talking to you.

See, I had this idea a while a few weeks ago while on one of the scans_daily replacement sites. It's hardly an original one. Christopher Bird has done it. Actually, he's done it twice and I found out The Spoony One is doing it now with movie scripts.

Regardless, I started discussing some of my ideas for this elsewhere. And the response was positive enough that I apparently won a fan just for two posts worth of navel-gazing. So now I feel a certain responsibility to write the whole thing out, if only to get it out of my head and into the ether.

I have a list written. I have more than enough ideas to run for a month. And yet, I have this aching feeling in the back of my head I forgot something. So, figuring that I'm going to have a lot of you asking me about various things once I start this anyway, I'm asking all of you to get it out of your systems now.

Pretend I'm the guy who has the fate of Green Arrow/Black Canary and the whole extended family of archers and martial artists in his hands. Ask me any question you'd like and voice any concerns in the comments here. If I like your question, I'll keep this going past the first month and keep writing these entries for as long as there's questions, until I get tired of it or until DC Comics files a cease-and-desist order and/or hires me to fix the book for real.

We can dream, can't we?

So, starting on June 1st, look for I Should Write Green Arrow/Black Canary every day.

I await your questions and comments.

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[info]shanejayell
2009-05-20 02:57 pm UTC (link)
Why is Black Canary staying out of touch with Oracle? Yes she's left the Birds but COME ON....

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[info]looking2dastars
2009-05-20 03:04 pm UTC (link)
Just so we're clear, you mean before Birds of Prey got canceled and Dinah chewed Babs out for spying on her, right?

Because while I haven't been keeping up on Battle for the Cowl I was under the impression that it was Babs who was cutting off ties with Dinah at the moment.

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[info]shanejayell
2009-05-20 03:07 pm UTC (link)
Either way. I mean, Dinah is leading the freaking JLA... you'd think she'd mend fences if only for that!

Besides, they've patched things up, from what I've seen of the last Birds issues.

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[info]looking2dastars
2009-05-20 03:16 pm UTC (link)
Actually, Dinah and Babs were cool last time I saw them appear in JLA, when Dinah was unloading on Barbara about Ollie and Hal going off to form their own scab Justice League.

Honestly, that's more of a Babs issue than an Ollie/Dinah thing since the whole argument basically boiled down to this.

1. Babs figures out something was up with Sin's death. Apparently Dinah didn't feel the need to tell Babs about Sin being in hiding for a while.
2. Rather than just call Dinah up like a normal friend, Babs gets Manhunter to start spying on Dinah and Ollie to find out what else Dinah might be hiding from her.
3. Dinah spots Manhunter, beats her senseless and tells Babs off for not calling her.

So basically I don't think there was any lack of communication re: Superhero Business. There's too much going on in the other books, including JLA, for that to be feasible. Dinah's issue was with Babs going spymaster on her regarding her personal life - hence Dinah telling Babs that the next time she wants information, call her... on the phone, not the JLA Alarm.

I'm tempted to devote a whole story to Dinah holding an intervention for Babs to seek help for her OCD... but that's for How To Fix Oracle. :)

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[info]shanejayell
2009-05-20 03:18 pm UTC (link)
Well, if you wanna write "How to Fix Oracle" I'd read it too. *lol*

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[info]looking2dastars
2009-05-20 03:21 pm UTC (link)
Not going to happen - if only because I'm sure that the title alone will provoke angry bloggers to start asking why I feel the need to fix Oracle and she's just fine the way she is and why can't I grow up and accept Cassandra Cain as Batgirl.

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Just some thoughts
(Anonymous)
2009-05-20 08:08 pm UTC (link)
Sorry, tried to email you sir but it got sent back.

1. What about Star City?
-Is Ollie still mayor and the Green Arrow?

2. Bad guys
-Seriously, I only know Merlyn as GA's foe. Are you come up with new ones, or develop the ones he already has?

3. Which kind?
-Is Ollie going to be a detective? "Working man hero"? Thrill-seeker? Left wing pundit? Argue with Hal again? Some of the above?

4. Sin?
-What the heck is up with that?

5. Judd Winick
Just...him and Smith. Are you to try and merge them all into one or just do something utterly different?

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Re: Just some thoughts
[info]looking2dastars
2009-05-20 11:34 pm UTC (link)
Is Ollie still mayor and the Green Arrow?

No on the mayor. Yes on the Green Arrow.


Seriously, I only know Merlyn as GA's foe. Are you come up with new ones, or develop the ones he already has?

Little of column A, Little of column B. I'm going to be bringing back some of his more obscure enemies for some specific storylines.. and not as cannon fodder, as Andrew Kreisberg did. I'm also creating a few new baddies. And because he has been so horribly overused, both as a foil for Ollie AND Dinah... no Merlyn. At all.


Is Ollie going to be a detective? "Working man hero"? Thrill-seeker? Left wing pundit? Argue with Hal again? Some of the above?

Summing up exactly who Ollie and Dinah are - in my mind at least - is going to be Reasons #1 and Reasons #2.


Sin? What the heck is up with that?

I'm devoting seperate articles to each of Ollie and Dinah's children and their place in the family. Roy. Connor. Sin. Mia. And Cissie.

Yes, you read that right.


Winnick...him and Smith. Are you to try and merge them all into one or just do something utterly different?

I'm going to be grabbing bits and pieces from all the writers whose work with the characters I liked... and Judd Winick.

Expect to see a mish-mash of O'Neil, Moore, Grell, Dixon, Smith, Simone, Meltzer, Morrison, Waid, Diggle and Johns by the time I'm true fixing the timeline.

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[info]philippos42
2009-05-20 08:22 pm UTC (link)
I have my own take on Green Arrow, so I'm not sure to what to degree I even want to influence this.

But I'll just ask:

What is Mia's role in a GABC book?

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[info]looking2dastars
2009-05-20 11:44 pm UTC (link)
What is Mia's role in a GABC book?

If I'm writing? A pretty big one. I have whole subplots devoted to her in my first two big story-arcs. And as I said above, whole sections are going to be devoted to setting up each of Ollie and Dinah's children.

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[info]90scartoonman
2009-05-21 02:03 am UTC (link)
Glad I wandered over here. The best part of reading a mediocre one (with one or two major flaws) on a title with characters you like is getting to see other fans come up with ideas on how to make things better.

I'd like to know how you plan on addressing the secret identity issues, as I mentioned before. Would you go back and do a New Earth-type retcon like Johns did with Hal and Barry? Heck, what would you do when it comes to Hal, Ollie, and Barry?

For Dinah, how would you bring her up to co-star status rather than sidekick?

Going along with that, how would you make each member of the family unique? How would you deal with Mia's condition?

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[info]looking2dastars
2009-05-21 02:34 am UTC (link)
I'd like to know how you plan on addressing the secret identity issues, as I mentioned before. Would you go back and do a New Earth-type retcon like Johns did with Hal and Barry?

It gives away nothing for me to say that yes, there will be a retcon involved in the first story arc. As sick as everyone is of retcons right now, I don't see any other way to avoid it in this case given that so much of Quiver doesn't make sense anymore... like How could Barry be outrunning Ollie's arrows in the Elysium Fields when Barry Allen didn't really die so much as he outran Death for the better part of a decade.

Heck, what would you do when it comes to Hal, Ollie, and Barry?

You mean the relationship between the characters? Or the fact that all three of them died and came back in relatively different ways and yet all had some level of interaction on The Other Side?


For Dinah, how would you bring her up to co-star status rather than sidekick?

I'd actually let her fight. I'd actually let her take the lead in things. I'd take a page from Alan Moore's book and have thugs recognize her and surrender rather than take a beating.

I have one story planned that will be a semi-sequel to one of the most neglected Green Arrow stories of all time... and it will basically be a Dinah solo piece that will give me a chance to put her against a villain who I'm amazed she's never gone solo against.

Also, The Birds of Prey are going to have a place in the new book on occasion and I'm bringing back a few villains from that to buff out the rogues gallery.

And that's just for starters...

Going along with that, how would you make each member of the family unique?

Each member of the family is already unique. I just have to remind everyone else of that fact. :)

Discussing each member of the family and how I see them will be one column each, as I said above.

How would you deal with Mia's condition?

The entire second story arc will revolve around this, actually. I expect some people to be sorely pissed off by how I address things but it will involve using some long-neglected aspects of both Ollie and Dinah's backgrounds.

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[info]90scartoonman
2009-05-23 04:23 am UTC (link)
Yeah, I figure Ollie would need a retcon too, so with all these retconnings, the relationship between Hal, Barry, and Ollie would need to bee re-established, and I was wondering how they'd compare notes on their deaths. Three of a Kind introduced me to Connor Hawke, and so far, nothing I've seen with Hal, Barry, and Ollie (granted, Barry JUST came back, but he was important in Identity Crisis) lately comes even close to the awesome that is Kyle, Wally, and Connor.

Most neglected Green rrow story of all time? I'm intrigued.

Oh, they all have unique personalities, but their gimmicks are similar. I don't want Mia saddled with a shampoo arrow, but look at the Bat family, where Bruce blends with the shadows, Dick is the acrobat, and Tim's got the staff, they all have very different fighting styles.

Mia's always been in a delicate state, it's a tough job to handle her, which is probably why she got shipped off.

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[info]looking2dastars
2009-05-25 03:08 pm UTC (link)
Three of a Kind introduced me to Connor Hawke, and so far, nothing I've seen with Hal, Barry, and Ollie (granted, Barry JUST came back, but he was important in Identity Crisis) lately comes even close to the awesome that is Kyle, Wally, and Connor.

Well, to be fair it's been close to 25 years since Barry has been in much position to be used for anything. Only things I can think of in recent memory that broach the topic are issue 4 of Mark Waid's Flash/Green Lantern: Brave and the Bold miniseries and Kevin Smith's Quiver.

Most neglected Green Arrow story of all time? I'm intrigued.

Well, this is entirely subjective and my personal opinion. But it's one that pretty much shoots the whole "Ollie is a cheating pervert" and "Ollie doesn't have the willpower to use a Green Lantern ring" party lines in the foot.

No, Ollie doesn't use a GL Ring (though there are stories where he did) but Ollie does wind up basically proving that he can equal Batman for sheer balls when push comes to shove.

I don't want Mia saddled with a shampoo arrow, but look at the Bat family, where Bruce blends with the shadows, Dick is the acrobat, and Tim's got the staff, they all have very different fighting styles.

Like I said, I'm doing an entry for each character. I am basing it more upon their role in the family than their role in the team, however. What Mia offers as Speedy is going to be a part of her profile - have no fear.

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[info]90scartoonman
2009-05-26 12:26 am UTC (link)
I am kind of going on the assumption that Hal, Ollie, and Barry were a mini Trinity back in their day, but I could be wrong. Heck, maybe it was Hal, Ollie, and Dinah.

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[info]looking2dastars
2009-05-28 01:45 pm UTC (link)
In the original GL/GA books, it was definitely Hal, Ollie & Dinah. To a degree, it still is.

I know there's at least one story from the Silver Age which shows Hal, Ollie and Barry going out on a triple date with their respective ladies at the time but I don't think Barry and Ollie were ever particularly buddy-buddy.

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[info]90scartoonman
2009-05-30 03:39 am UTC (link)
I guess not, but for whatever reason, I'm jonesing for some Barry/Ollie interaction and hoping (with the addition of Hal) they'd be almost as entertaining as Wally, Connor, and Kyle.

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[info]cissie_king
2009-05-21 05:12 pm UTC (link)
I believe this is the most important question.

GREEN ERROR or FUNNY ARROW? Who is the best Green Arrow homage clown?

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[info]looking2dastars
2009-05-21 11:47 pm UTC (link)
Green Error, easily. Not only because his name was an actual parody of 'Green Arrow' but because he had an Arrow Clown Car.

Thank you, by the way. This question makes even the most obscure thing I was going to reference seem modern and sane by comparison.

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[info]cissie_king
2009-05-22 01:07 am UTC (link)
I was going through the Green Arrow Showcase, and there were a few things I had forgotten like the Arrow-Chimp, but one of the few things I think i'll never forget is Green Error and Funny Arrow. I just can't wrap my mind that there is not one, but TWO Green Arrow homage clowns. Even Batman only has one.

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[info]looking2dastars
2009-05-22 01:54 am UTC (link)
Is that with or without counting The Joker?

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[info]cissie_king
2009-05-22 02:30 am UTC (link)
Joker doesn't count. I was talking about Fatman.

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[info]looking2dastars
2009-05-22 02:38 am UTC (link)
Ah, okay.

From a certain viewpoint, Joker IS an homage clown to Batman...

But to me, Fatman is the Rush Limbaughesque defender of bullied husky boys from Freakazoid.

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[info]scottyquick
2009-05-22 01:19 am UTC (link)
Okay, how would you write Connor? Mia? Shado? I'm curious as to what you think of them.

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[info]looking2dastars
2009-05-22 01:53 am UTC (link)
Well, going into details at this point would be a bit much. As I said in the above comments, I plan to devote separate articles to how I'd handle each of Ollie's kids since family is going to be a big part of my proposal.

As for Shado...she won't be a regular... but she will show up at least once.

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More questions
(Anonymous)
2009-05-23 04:46 pm UTC (link)
So far, everything sounds great. I did have some more questions though.

-Where?
Is Ollie in Star City? And speaking of Star City, where the heck is it? I mean, Gotham City is vaguely Northeast, Central City Midwestern, and Coast City West coastish, so where is Star? Also, what kind of city is it? Crime riddled noir-ish like Gotham? Hearty blend of various genres like Opal? The city of tomorrow like Metropolis? Something new?

-Red Arrow?
I mean, I wasn't bothered by the name change, but is Speedy sticking with that or what?

-Only GA and BC?
I mean, if the city is only protected by the Arrow family, cool, but are there other heroes? Does Ollie run the city like Batman? Does Dinah keep the local cops informed?

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Re: More questions
[info]looking2dastars
2009-05-25 03:34 pm UTC (link)
Is Ollie in Star City? And speaking of Star City, where the heck is it? I mean, Gotham City is vaguely Northeast, Central City Midwestern, and Coast City West coastish, so where is Star? Also, what kind of city is it? Crime riddled noir-ish like Gotham? Hearty blend of various genres like Opal? The city of tomorrow like Metropolis? Something new?

Star City is listed in Official Atlas of the DCU as being in Northern California, sandwiched between Coast City and Gateway City - all three of which are located on the coast Northwest from San Fransisco.

It's never been as well developed as Metropolis or Gotham or Opal. It hasn't even been as well developed as St. Roch in Hawkman.

Given where it is, I personally would envision it as being a Pacific Northwest metropolis that still honors its' college town roots and independent pioneer spirit. Think Berkley mixed with Seattle.

Red Arrow?

Roy's made the change and I think he'll stick with it this time. If nothing else because he's finally gotten Dick and Wally to quit calling him "Arse" for short.

-Only GA and BC?

Ollie is very Batman-like in wanting to meet and approve of anyone who wants to operate in "his city". He is, however, a great deal nicer about dealing with aspiring heroes than Bruce is. He and Dinah are both more inclined to give the newbie pointers than do the "If you play on my field, you play by my rules speech."

Hell, Ollie was able to make nice with freaking DEADSHOT, so I think he'd at least TRY to come to an understanding with any new heroes.

Now, if some vigilante who had no qualms about using lethal force were to show up... I think the police would have to be called to save the guy from the twin barrels of Queen/Lance rage.

That being said, the first story arc will bring a sort-of hero into Star City for the first time; an anti-villain who has a lot in common with Ollie who will play sort of a Shade role to the rest of the Arrow Family.

Oh, and the first arc is an excuse for me to bring him back from the dead because honestly... he got shafted. Nobody did anything with his really cool "trying to redeem myself" storyline and he was killed off in a way that was so unceremonious I don't think anyone but me was outraged.

That ought to be enough to give you kids something to guess at for a week or two. ;)

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